Comments on: Vande Mataram – To Sing or Not to Sing http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/ Critiquing the Politics, Policy & Practice of Development Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:08:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Sujai http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41265 Sujai Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:15:23 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41265 Dweep: I agree with you that nobody should dictate how and in what way a person has to express his/her patriot feelings. Now, I would like to comment on what you said: "Next, the Muslims. Sure, the song refers to the goddess Durga, but more than anything else, it talks about India. When they object to singing the song, they can not be concerned about what the song is about, because it is - first and foremost - about India... But which identity are they choosing to be faithful to - that of a muslim or that of an Indian?" There is a tendency in India (as elsewhere) to assume that the way we behave is the right way and that others should conform to it. For Hindus, may be, religion is secondary compared to nationality. For Muslims, religion is the biggest identity- which is constant, unchanging and permanent for millenia. For them, Nations, states, kingdoms and hence allegiances change with time while religion remains the same. They attach more importance to religion and its interpretation compared to nation and its interpretation. The failure to understand this will result in confusion. Being tolerant comes from the ability to understand why they behave the way they behave. Just because they consider religion to be supreme does not mean they are not patriotic to the nation. Allegiance to both religion and nation is quite practical and not mutually exclusive. Such misconceptions should be discarded. Muslims have always opposed (not only in India but elsewhere) deification of nation. According to them it is idolatry. Calling rain a rain-god, monkey as monkey-god, or a nation as Goddess Durga (Bharat Mata), is something that is unIslamic. The very foundation of Islam was made on breaking away from such pagan worships- all forms of anthropomorphism are discarded. To ask them or request them to uphold a song or a ritual that deifies nation (as human) goes against these basic tenets. They shall respect Nature and the Nation, but they will not pray to it. While Hindus can pray to almost anything- including a rock, animal, natural event, or human, Muslims do not. The failure to understand this will result in confusion- it will result in false expectations and hence disappointment. Sujai Dweep:
I agree with you that nobody should dictate how and in what way a person has to express his/her patriot feelings.

Now, I would like to comment on what you said:
“Next, the Muslims. Sure, the song refers to the goddess Durga, but more than anything else, it talks about India. When they object to singing the song, they can not be concerned about what the song is about, because it is – first and foremost – about India… But which identity are they choosing to be faithful to – that of a muslim or that of an Indian?”

There is a tendency in India (as elsewhere) to assume that the way we behave is the right way and that others should conform to it. For Hindus, may be, religion is secondary compared to nationality. For Muslims, religion is the biggest identity- which is constant, unchanging and permanent for millenia. For them, Nations, states, kingdoms and hence allegiances change with time while religion remains the same. They attach more importance to religion and its interpretation compared to nation and its interpretation. The failure to understand this will result in confusion. Being tolerant comes from the ability to understand why they behave the way they behave. Just because they consider religion to be supreme does not mean they are not patriotic to the nation. Allegiance to both religion and nation is quite practical and not mutually exclusive. Such misconceptions should be discarded.

Muslims have always opposed (not only in India but elsewhere) deification of nation. According to them it is idolatry. Calling rain a rain-god, monkey as monkey-god, or a nation as Goddess Durga (Bharat Mata), is something that is unIslamic. The very foundation of Islam was made on breaking away from such pagan worships- all forms of anthropomorphism are discarded. To ask them or request them to uphold a song or a ritual that deifies nation (as human) goes against these basic tenets. They shall respect Nature and the Nation, but they will not pray to it. While Hindus can pray to almost anything- including a rock, animal, natural event, or human, Muslims do not. The failure to understand this will result in confusion- it will result in false expectations and hence disappointment.
Sujai

]]> By: Dweep Chanana http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41257 Dweep Chanana Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:00:29 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41257 Sujai, Your comparison of eating meat with mixing identity is logically correct but contextually quite pointless. It doesn't address whether my argument is correct or not, simply digresses from it. The song has a historical relation to the independence struggle and its meaning is based on an intentional play on words. Eating meat is perhaps slightly different from an abstract imaginative song-based similey? Just a thought. Sujai,
Your comparison of eating meat with mixing identity is logically correct but contextually quite pointless. It doesn’t address whether my argument is correct or not, simply digresses from it.

The song has a historical relation to the independence struggle and its meaning is based on an intentional play on words. Eating meat is perhaps slightly different from an abstract imaginative song-based similey? Just a thought.

]]> By: Sujai Karampuri http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41255 Sujai Karampuri Thu, 07 Sep 2006 11:23:06 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41255 If someone defines a practice of eating meating as one of the rituals of expressing one's patriotism and makes it a national symbol, will the higher caste chaste hindus who practise strict vegetarianism be willing to eat meat just to prove that they are patriotic? And if those hindus refuse to eat meat, arguing that patriotism has nothing to do with eating certain food item or the other, will others accuse them of mixing nationalism and religious-caste identity? Just a thought! If someone defines a practice of eating meating as one of the rituals of expressing one’s patriotism and makes it a national symbol, will the higher caste chaste hindus who practise strict vegetarianism be willing to eat meat just to prove that they are patriotic?
And if those hindus refuse to eat meat, arguing that patriotism has nothing to do with eating certain food item or the other, will others accuse them of mixing nationalism and religious-caste identity?
Just a thought!

]]> By: Sujai Karampuri http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41247 Sujai Karampuri Sun, 03 Sep 2006 07:32:35 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41247 I agree that such symbols cannot be imposed onto the people of India. We are free to practise and follow such symbols or chose not to. No party or organization should ask a community to practise such symbols to prove their loyalty and patriotism towards India. Should every religious person prove their religiosity by reciting the prescribed prayers? Can he chose not to and still love his god? More on this at: http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-singing-vande-mataram.html Sujai I agree that such symbols cannot be imposed onto the people of India. We are free to practise and follow such symbols or chose not to. No party or organization should ask a community to practise such symbols to prove their loyalty and patriotism towards India. Should every religious person prove their religiosity by reciting the prescribed prayers? Can he chose not to and still love his god?
More on this at:
http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-singing-vande-mataram.html
Sujai

]]> By: Alex M Thomas http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41242 Alex M Thomas Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:52:18 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41242 What you say is true, the citizens must have a platform to voice their choice and it must not be forced upon them. What you say is true, the citizens must have a platform to voice their choice and it must not be forced upon them.

]]> By: Dweep Chanana http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/comment-page-1/#comment-41240 Dweep Chanana Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:47:00 +0000 http://www.planetd.org/2006/08/30/vande-mataram-to-sing-or-not-to-sing/#comment-41240 I must admit that I criticize muslims for mixing religion and nationalism, without understanding their objections to this song. Perhaps it is not possible in this case. For a muslim view of the issue, please see the following post by Mohib: <a href="http://desicritics.org/2006/08/29/070140.php" rel="nofollow">What Is My Issue with Vande Mataram</a> I must admit that I criticize muslims for mixing religion and nationalism, without understanding their objections to this song. Perhaps it is not possible in this case. For a muslim view of the issue, please see the following post by Mohib: What Is My Issue with Vande Mataram

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